The Ethics of Playing Video Games.....

[Bridger - Retired Paladin]

First of all, I would like to say that I am 100% against doing something that has a negative impact on someone else. (I.e. - gil buying, as it throws an economy out of wach, and actively prevents people who worked for their gil from purchasing items at reasonable prices. Or doing something like selling an item in your bazaar at the price of a stack, when you know the item will be sold individually, not as a stack, and you are hoping someone buys it at 12x the price.)

There has been more than 1 occasion, where I have mentioned certain exploits of FFXI, and a few select individuals have well, to put it nicely, freaked the hell out for having brought up the topic. I have always dodged the issues of the "Ethics of Videogames" (i.e. - how you treat a computer programmed monster with no feelings, which I equate to how I treat an inamiate rock ). I have always dodged this issue, because I thought the concept in and of itself was stupid.

When I have brought up exploits I have heard responses such as

"how you approach a video game is how you approach life" -> I couldn't help but laugh

"you are ruining the enjoyment of the game" -> I find this odd, as my own enjoyment is for me alone to determine

Or they will make posts trying to argue the legitimacy of a win, when they were not there. My response to these people is "why do you care?" Did it ruin your day? Do you feel cheated and ripped off by Square/Enix of the $12.95 a month you pay to play the game?

I would like to say the following:

1) You are not less of a human being for having cheated in a video game.

Anyone who responds trying to tell me how inhuman people who cheat at video games are, and how much people who use exploits are stupid, just remember 1 thing,

When we fight Kirin, I have seen people telling or asking our blms to log for hate, that was obviously never intended, and it is an exploit I have seen us use. I also doubt it was intended for the dead party members to be immediately dropped, and replaced with new ones. However, I believe people find fun in these methods, or at least have fun from the drops they get, and I will not condemn them.

Personally, I only use exploits when I have either
1) completely given up ( hasn't happened yet) or
2) suffered repeatedly from the stupidity of others in BCNM fights (i.e.- the monk who refused to 2hr Oryu when he was at 45%).

I say again,

You are not less of a human being for having cheated in a video game.

If cheating at a video game makes you happy, and it doesn't screw others or violate the terms of service, I say go for it, be happy, remember the game was made to make you happy.

[Markus]

No, it doesn't make you any less of a human being. But depending on the exploits you are using, it does make you pathetic. I don't play the game to be a human being. I play for fun. I play for a challenge. So if you fuck with my fun by gil buying, botting and other things of the nature... Yes, you are fucking with my fun and rather pathetic.


Things like Windower and logging for hate, has absolutely no negative effect on anyone's game play. The main reason why Windower is forbidden is because it permits FF players to use other 3rd party programs wich do give them an unfair advantage. It is these 3rd party programs that have a negative impact on many other players.

Logging for hate is not an exploit or an infraction of the ToS. At least that is what the GM just told me. They are not allowed to decide when we are allowed or not allowed to log in, simple as that. The dropping dead party members argument is just silly...

The AV "exploit" is not against ToS.

The CoP mission "exploit" may or may not be againts ToS, I would have to ask a GM.

I am willing to agree that these are the "cheap" ways to do things. The easy route, instead of the more challenging route. But in general I find the game to be very challenging and time consuming. So if I can find a small loop hole, that will help me put more gil and items in people's pockets. You are fucking right I will use it. These acts benefit us and harm no one else.


The next time you think we are using exploits I think it would be a good idea to PM a Sackholder. Thanks ^^

[Bridger - Retired Paladin]

To be clear Markus, this was not an attack on EO, and your damn right, I will use exploits too if they hurt no one. My definition of exploit being doing something obviously no intended which doesn't violate ToS.

[Sosa]

I'm not trying to condemn either of you for your opinion, but by your definition of exploit, Bridger, are we to assume that if someone is doing something that is obviously not intended by the dev team and it does violate the ToS, it's not an exploit? lol

I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with you.

I get so many people that "look down on me" for using windower. Why? What inherant advantage does that give me that allows me to perform something on my job that you can't? I'm not a better player because I have windower. Unfortuntately, not everyone will see eye to eye on this. I suppose that's too bad for them.

[Bridger - Retired Paladin]

LoL Sosa, you got me, I just went back and re-read what I wrote, and I laughed, silly me. How about this:

Exploit = doing something obviously not intended, which may or may not violate ToS (i.e. - independent of violating ToS).

Sending in 17 blms to Divine Might -> Exploit, doesn't violate ToS
Some people will treat you like you are souless for having done this. These people are ridiculous and forget the outcome of the game doesn't matter, and you are not a horrible person for doing so.

Using 3rd party program to change subjobs in Valkurum Dunes -> Exploit, violates ToS.

[Sosa]

[threadjack]

I think I can basically sum up my entire argument by saying:



[/threadjack]

This game throws challenges at you that practically beg for solutions like that. Players will always find solutions to problems that the original developers did not intend. It crosses over into the realm of being an exploit when it gives a player or specific group of players access to a set of favorable circumstances that have a direct impact on gameplay, and cannot be achieved by anyone else not using this method.

[Markus]

sosa said:

/em takes back the T-Shirt.

[Jonathan]

When you complete something or achieve something, it isn't necessarilly fun. What makes it fun is the sense of accomplishment and the feeling of overcoming a challenge.

If you want to logout during a cs for your 2-5, that's your right If you're curious to see if the same trick works during a DM that I'm on, then it does affect me, and I will not enjoy having progressed onto zm15 if zm14 was done in such a method.

Manaburning things isn't an exploit, it's just the easy way out. It takes skill to manaburn something. Not on our part, but on the blms' part. It takes a lot of skill and practice to get down that kind of teamwork and co-ordination to accomplish something so effortlessly-seeming.

While you're right that it's your business and it doesn't affect people, if you just want to get ahead in an already too-much-time-consuming game, that's up to you.

Personally, taking satisfaction in overcoming challenges and enjoying the friendships I've made make up the majority of the reason I play.
Some people don't care much about the overcome part and are happy by just getting through. That's their right.

You can sometimes change someone's opinion about something, but this as silly a sit sounds is a lot deeper - to change how someone feels regarding this you'd have to change their way of thinking and who they are.

Which btw is not easily done at all, and we will always have to agree to disagree

[Sosa]

Posts: 5,719

...damn, Markus... and what did you get, a gold watch? XD

[Xaero]

aye, btw jus think of all the ninja tank pts everyone has been in, Ninja was not intended to be used as such.. buuuut well we see where that went though.

If you want to logout during a cs for your 2-5, that's your right If you're curious to see if the same trick works during a DM that I'm on, then it does affect me, and I will not enjoy having progressed onto zm15 if zm14 was done in such a method.

if it got me through CoP id do it.. lol especially since i have found no part of CoP fun or enjoyable, and generally forcing me to play jobs i never wanted to play.. perhaps if/when i lvl blu up maybe..

I get so many people that "look down on me" for using windower.

aye, i disagree wit using a windower. however i have never looked down at anyone who uses one though. course i also disagree wit mules aswell

[estara]

So, before our CoP 2-5 battle our static talking about using that lil exploit to win, since we had an iffy party set up and weren't sure if we could win. Eventually we decided to do a dry run so we would know what to expect. So we went in, I remembered to cast reraise at the last minutes, we got slaughtered and laughed. Then we went back in, killed one, lost a kiter right as we killed the first, lost another member (healing hate lol), and kept fighting. We were all sure we were doomed with 2 members down and 2 monsters still alive. But we apparently brought enough potions and ether, and our blm 2hr-ed, and we whupped em! I even managed to raise one person before the end of the fight.

That fight wouldn't have been quite so fun for me without all those mistakes. And I certainly don't think I would have enjoyed it if we had used that exploit. (Although, I'm sure Muzi and Linger didn't have nearly as much fun eating dirt >.>)

[Nauren]

All COP missions are much more tolerable with the correct equipment. i.e reraise items, potions, ethers, yags, au Laut

[Jonathan]

I like CoP so far but it hasn't been too stressful or littered with failures. 7/7 on promies, 2/2 on 2-3, 1/1 on 2-5, and 1/3 on Diabolos.

I'm also in a static which makes me a little biased of course.
I just wish I could meet more than 1 time a week >.>

[Kaifu1]

I've always had a sore spot for "cheating" Game Shark is worthless imo. I don't pay 50$ to have infinity health and all the end game stuff right off the bat. I want to earn them. To know I did my best to have what I own. You can roll this into buying gil, its nothing to brag that 12 mil item you bought of Ebay, but its ok by me to brag about the 2 months of farming and camping you did to earn it.

I consider a Game Guides aka walkthrough cheating to an point. Not including FFXI, mostly because it takes so much time and energy to get to a point. Going in ill perphered is a death wish. Think of it as warning... But, for a Console game, no way. In fact, I bought Kingdom Hearts 2 collector's ED Player's guide. Its still wraped up, and will remain that way intill I beat the game on my own. Once I pick up the challenge to beat it on hard/Pride mode, then I'll need the little boost of help it will provide. I won't use it as a cruch.

[Nauren]

I use strategy guides lol. I will get burned out from a game if I don't before I beat it. That and developers purposely make games to where the average player needs to have the strategy guide..thats how they make a little more money.