You Voted For Bush? I blame you! ~or~ Every1=Jail

[flyingsnow]

tyvm tarick. my only request for this thread is to play nice all i don't care about anyone's personal political stances (political scientist here, lol, i've heard it all which way), so say your piece, just be nice

[Nauren]

I really dislike American History...probably because it was beat into my head (incorrectly I might add) since Kindergarten day 1 with Columbus discovering America. I much prefer most Europe or Asia style histories.

Not to mention the horrible literature..."O Captain My Captain" or how about the horrible ghost stories of Richmand Island...or was it Roanoke Island....... its one of those can't remember exactly.

European savages (the lesser of savages) invaded American..killed, plundered someone who lived her previously. Not exactly the best of fairy tails.

Not that I have a disgust for pointless wars and such. I loved Romes history.....where a Caeser burned the city to the ground just to see the colors.....the Greeks....

Now there is literature worth reading...Oedipus Rex (sp)was awesome...Greek Tragedy ftw.

[estara]

tarick said:

estara said:

LOL kai... I just had to laugh when I read that. "Wasn't much going on". Too funny.

You misread what he wrote. He said there wasn't as much to go on, which I imagine would be in regards to media and dissemination of information.

estara said:

If you want to really, really, really know what the root problem with society is, you can start with studying the history of Capitalism. Look at how the entire process has been one of the working class fighting to regain their rights (shelter, health, subsistence) from the elite classes. For me, Looking so closely at this history has brought the realization that the system cannot be changed from within, because it is inherently flawed. It is flawed in favor of giving more power to those who will abuse and cheat their way into gaining the most wealth. For me, the realization is that the system needs to be destroyed, if humanity wants to really have what it wants (what that is, how to get, and if it is even possible, I don't know).

Yes, I sound like a socialist. But after reading the history of socialists I think that's a good thing.

Firstly, health, shelter and subsistence are not rights, in my opinion. You have the right to health? No matter what? Even if you sit on your ass all day and do nothing, someone should provide a dr. for you? Someone should provide shelter for you? and food?

I interpret socialism as egalitarian, materially and otherwise. If this is incorrect, I'm sorry. I don't understand how this would be a good thing. Again, I'll relate it to ffxi. Some of the LS members have more money than others, because they worked for it, got high craft skills, whatever. You feel that we should pool the money and everyone get their split? Even the person who only xp's and doesn't bother making any money?

Socialism (again, the way I interpret it, which may be incorrect) is a system that rewards the lazy and incompetent by giving them an equal share. Capitalism rewards those of greater ability and work ethic, by giving them a greater share.

Socialism is a system that would reward those who actually worked. It was invented by people who were pissed off from working their asses off, people whose jobs literally destroyed their bodies, and who got shit for pay. Not enough money to pay their bills, buy food, and stay healthy. They wanted their work to earn them the money to support themselves. They felt their work should. They didn't feel the rewards of their honest hard work should go to men who sat in offices and moved money around (the elite class again). That's was socialism is.

What you mentioned was Welfare. I know about welfare. I was a welfare kid. Yes, there are people who work the system and get money they don't deserve. But here's a nice fact for you. Most of the money distributed through welfare programs in the US goes to HUGE CORPORATIONS. So if you want to say "Oh too much money is spent on welfare programs" well don't cut it from the poor... cut the programs that reward corporations for providing poor people with jobs that, essentially, keep them poor.

Last thing:
I don't care about Bush. He's an idiot. But that my opinion. You don't have to agree with, you don't have to like it. Based on what I know and have experienced, he's a selfish rich boy, who couldn't take care of himself if he was dumped into a seedy one bedroom apartment with a crap ass job and no connections. He was put into his position, and if he stays there it will be the work of others that keep him there. If I have any feeling for him it is of distain or contempt. Not because I think or know myself to be better than him. But because he was put in a position to go a great deal of good, yet he has squandered it and made many situations worse.

But in the long run, Bush doesn't concern me. What concerns me is that our country is based on a capitalist system of ownership that destroys communities, divides class further and further, and allows a very few number of people to decide how the affairs of the world are going to be run. Its a system that was in place long before Bush was every born, and will most likely be here long after he is dust.

[tarick]

tarick said:

Why don't I like to argue politics?

You won't change anybody's mind.

[Markus]

Voulez-vous vraiment savoir ce que je pense de toute cette merde politique?

Je penses que... c'est de la merde. Un politician c'est un mot utilisé pour décrire quelqu'un qui veut tout controller... Il veut du pouvoir absolut. La -vraie- démocracy n'existe pas. On délégue le pouvoir, pis les politicians l'abuse.

EDIT: Estara, tu es inviter de participer a un événement sexuelle bizarre!

EDIT2: Lol please forgive me for all the grammar and spelling mistakes heheh.

[estara]

ya, that last thing tarick said.... I agree

and not gonna agree with mark, cause for all I know, it's a invitation to some weird sexual thing.


Edit: <3 translation programs
Ok, I agree with mark too lol

[Sosa]

I'll admit that I made my opinion of Bush pretty obvious, but I think a lot of people have missed my point entirely... yes, I have a disliking for the man on general principal of his actions and tendencies, but that's not the basis I use to form my opinion of the US government. While we have a presidency, the president is not the system... he's one part of the system. A lot of you are absolutely right, we could have anyone in Bush's place and that's not to say anything would change. If we had Kerry in office, he might have voted in favor of Bill 2257, he might have. The point is irrelevant. Bush is a moron who sees it perfectly within his rights to abuse his position by using it to impose his personal moral values upon others that live in a free society, showing little respect to cultural diversity or the barriers put in place within our system of government to prevent exactly this from occurring. That's why I have a problem with him, specifically. It's not about trying to lay all of the blame for society's problems on his lap, it's about accounting for what he, specifically, has done with the country.
Nauren, I can't speak for soldiers stateside, as I haven't talked with any in bases stationed overseas... but I worked DIRECTLY with US soldiers deployed overseas in Europe... and as an extension of that position, also had the opportunity to meet both with soldiers going downrange and soldiers coming home. They're mostly good men and women, and each one of them holds their own political beliefs and values. That is to say, a lot of them support the war in Iraq... but a lot of them don't. A lot of them are very unhappy with what they are doing, and none of them really have a choice in the matter. Yes, they knew what they were signing up for, but the fact is that they don't send volunteer units to Iraq. You can volunteer for a station there, but if your number is called - you go. Whether or not you agree with the war has absolutely no bearing. And so a lot of the returning troops are VERY unhappy... they miss their families, their homes, and they can't all see a point in what they're doing. NO number of casualties are acceptable when the chief executive officer lies to his troops, that's the conclusion I've drawn personally, after having met these people and their families on daily basis.

And with that... I'll have to respectfully bow out of this discussion, as I'm leaving for the Airport to come home myself... XD Remember to keep it civil, guys...

[estara]

markus said:

EDIT: Estara, tu es inviter de participer a un événement sexuelle bizarre!

lmao {Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.} I only do that with Bowmen

[Beren]

/Tip toes toward this thread late at night very quietly . . .

Greek Tragedy ftw.

/agree ^^

/Scurries away . . .

[Gael]

And to think, all this political shit-flinging (and let's face it, as restrained and polite as it's been, it's been a poobomb from the start) started because a bill was ratified that made it illegal to call someone a n00b online.

My question is this: if they're going to make such an offensive move in defiance of the first amendment as this, just how far are they going to go in the interest of "homeland security"? The first amendment doesn't say "freedom of speech, as long as you keep it warm and fuzzy and happy," after all.

Then again, there's also something I'd like to point out that also points to the long-term validity of this bill:
Anyone remember reading about the Prohibition Era? Yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Okay, I'm done. ^_~b continue as you were!

[Julie(Asheera)]

Tous les politiciens sont pourris et pensent au nom du profit; et ces enfoirés là bouffent tous les jours sur le dos des cons qui votent pour eux. Y'en a pas un mieux que l'autre, ils sont tous là pour s'en mettre plein les poches pendant que toi tu crève la dalle. C'est des voleurs. Mais je suppose que tous ces dollars ca laisse pas beaucoup de temps pour ceux qui crèvent sur le trottoir...
Oui c'est de la merde. POUVOIR=DOLLAR

Please forgive for the french lol >.> i cant find the words in english to translate my hate against politicians. Theres only one party in politic, the party of the profit.

[estara]

asheera said:

Theres only one party in politic, the party of the profit.

YESH!!! thats why I hate capitalist politics!! It doesn't matter if you vote democrat or republican, because the corporations own both those parties (Lets face it, politicians are nothing more than corporate bitches). Which is why I hate politics and have decided not to vote, except in local elections.

[Kaifu1]

I vote... for... free air?