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Post by isabo on Dec 29, 2005 18:58:08 GMT -5
OK, I have seen this thread multiple times on the most recent 15 and have never read any of it because I thought it was all about the economy /sigh. Now that I have read it I am intrigued.
I am a teacher without kids and I'd like to think that I have more than just book smarts.
I applaud Chaucer's conversion to Taoism. I have always been fascinated with the Eastern religions/philosophies and if I had the discipline I would be a Zen buddhist:
Everyday Life is the Path
Joshu asked Nansen: `What is the path?'
Nansen said: `Everyday life is the path.'
Joshu asked: `Can it be studied?'
Nansen said: `If you try to study, you will be far away from it.'
Joshu asked: `If I do not study, how can I know it is the path?'
Nansen said: `The path does not belong to the perception world, neither does it belong to the nonperception world. Cognition is a delusion and noncognition is senseless. If you want to reach the true path beyond doubt, place yourself in the same freedom as sky. You name it neither good nor not-good.'
At these words Joshu was enlightened.
Moving on, if sex is supposed to be only for reproductive purposes then why was it made to feel so good and why it is possible to have the pleasure without actually doing the full act that leads to conceiving (I hate the I before E thing...is that spelled right) a child. Not to mention gays and lesbians whose sexual acts can never lead to conception. I guess with that argument one would have to believe that sexual orientation is not a choice, which I do believe.
I know I am late to the party and had to shove a lot of info into one post but I hope that at least some of it is coherent.
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_Code
Retired Orphan
Pas De Cadeaux.
Posts: 2,804
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Post by _Code on Dec 30, 2005 11:14:36 GMT -5
Welcome to the party. I hope to keep this going ^^ Moving on, if sex is supposed to be only for reproductive purposes then why was it made to feel so good and why it is possible to have the pleasure without actually doing the full act that leads to conceiving Isa, I hate to flounder my points, since you are backing up my point, but Sex feels good, so we'll do it. Same reason eating feels good, and ridding your body of waste feels good. Sleeping feels good. Why you feel sick when you eat something bad. If you were left with no direction of how to do anything, you'd eat, poop and fuck. Down to our basest of urges again. Which I guess is more to the idea of evolving our idea's; in as much as, we've evolved, we dont need to build clay huts anymore, and in reverso we dont need to only have sex for procreation anymore. And your spelling is correct ^^ _Code |
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 11:37:30 GMT -5
Althought I do have sex for nonprocreational reasons. I'm still not conviced its right. it feels instinctually taboo. Why do most of us keep our sex life private? Why do most of us have crazy sexual fantasies? In the caveman days we didn't feel this. Maybe its a Pandora's Box. Maybe we are all right in our own way. In most primates, masterbation does occur but mainly the alpha male gets his pick in a family group of apes/monkeys. The child is taken care of by the family not just the mother and father. Since this is so far different from humans, I don't think we can compare to them so well.
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Post by tarick on Dec 30, 2005 11:47:36 GMT -5
The taboo is not instinctual. It is ingrained into you by your parents, by society. Hang around a 3 or 5 year old for awhile. See how often his/her hands instinctually go to their crotch, until the parents tell them to stop.
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 12:00:39 GMT -5
Thats like saying murder isn't instinctually bad. We are given the instinct of knowing good from bad. My parents attempted to imprint alot of stuff. some stuck..some didn't. We all know that part of the attaction to sex is the fact its taboo.
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Post by isabo on Dec 30, 2005 12:02:58 GMT -5
/agreed. Wow, you have no idea how many parents came to me with that problem. "My child is always touching him/herself. How do I make them stop?" Well, you shouldn't. Once you make it something to be ashamed of it will always remain that way.
Example 1: In Italy, the drinking age is lower than it is in the US. Families tend to have bottles of wine at dinner and they allow their young children to partake on a regular basis. Therefore, the alcoholism rate is much lower there. They don't have sheltered children running off to university and getting alcohol poisoning at the first party they go to because they do not feel the need to rebel.
Example 2: Also in Italy (I spent a semester there in college and loved every second of it) men are very open with their emotions. They walk arm in arm, greet each other with kisses on the cheek. They were not told in their youth that acts such as those are "fruity" so they are able to retain their masculinity and express themselves in way that would be interpreted as effeminate in the US. In fact, I found Italian men to be some of the most manly men I have ever encountered. (Ladies, PM me for details...lol)
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 12:22:42 GMT -5
Those are interpretations of acts but not the act of doing so. For example. Walking arm and arm with a guy in the USA does seem fruity however does not imply they are gay and have engaged in homosexual relations.
In Italy as almost every other country, sex is still sacred between a couple and is still kept as personal.
However I agree that the social economy dictates our feelings towards certain acts. I also agree that these feelings and interpretations aren't always correct.
Example: It is illegal in all countries and dispised by all to sleep with some one not of age i.e 13-15 etc as it is child molestation and statuatory rape. However since the beginning of time age 11-13 was prime for marriage and motherhood. Even in the early 1900's less then 1 century ago it was not frowned upon to have a 13 y/o wife. Just food for thought.
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_Code
Retired Orphan
Pas De Cadeaux.
Posts: 2,804
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Post by _Code on Dec 30, 2005 12:23:38 GMT -5
Thats like saying murder isn't instinctually bad. We are given the instinct of knowing good from bad. My parents attempted to imprint alot of stuff. some stuck..some didn't. We all know that part of the attaction to sex is the fact its taboo. its not, this is the difference between nature and nurture. We are equipped to defend ourselves, Naturally murder isn't bad, its the means that its become that make it bad. Murder is no longer naturally necessary. |
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 12:28:05 GMT -5
disagreed. For humans its never been naturally necessary even in the caveman days. They lived in groups. Most murder's were created by the people who were intelligently and technologically advanced. I.E Rome, Germany, England. Superpowers of the world..leaders of the Earth were the ones who murdered the most. Not saying its right, but statistically murders are created by the most evolved of cultures.
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_Code
Retired Orphan
Pas De Cadeaux.
Posts: 2,804
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Post by _Code on Dec 30, 2005 12:30:10 GMT -5
I'm speaking in regards of our beastial basis. Not culturally speaking. In any culture its beyond that aspect. However, you had to defend your kill at some point. Its the same as animal kingdom, animals kill animals. Not necessarily for food, but for natural defense.
They weren't always fingernails, y'know ^^
/em welcomes the evolutionary conversation
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 12:34:32 GMT -5
most animals compete for food and mating purposes. These are also the lower spectrum on intelligent animals. Not to mention that natural selection has also evolved their food sources to run faster then them. The difference between us and animals....is we know better. We have guilt, anger, empathy, sympathy that separates us from said animals. Its those gifts that make certain acts right or wrong. It can neither be right or wrong to an animal because they do not have the luxary o fknowing it.
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_Code
Retired Orphan
Pas De Cadeaux.
Posts: 2,804
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Post by _Code on Dec 30, 2005 12:39:43 GMT -5
which brings about the argument, do we know it instinctually, or because its been hammered into our brains from day one?
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Post by Nauren on Dec 30, 2005 12:42:19 GMT -5
my parents never told me that sex was bad. In fact (and I want to kill myself for knowing this) my parents were very sexually active. My dad was happy when I wanted to stay the night at a house with 2 girls at 14. Whats my excuse? Why am I the one that feels it to be imprinted on my very genetic code?
and remember....some things are not turned on in our body until a certain age is obtained. i.e. puberty and sexual desires.
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Post by isabo on Dec 30, 2005 13:02:05 GMT -5
Shame and guilt, or even a sense of propriety about sexual acts, are formed for different reasons in different people. Some, like Codeine suggested, are told from a very young age that sex, and everything associated with it, is wrong (extreme example: Carrie by Stephen King). Some people have had horrible things happen to them that lead them to fear or shy away from sex. Some people are just naturally more reserved and see it as something that is meant for only them and their partner. A whole generation of people rebelled against the shame and guilt and believed in "free love". Did they really believe in it or were they actually acting against their own consciences to change how they and the rest of society felt about the act? Who knows.
When sex became more about recreation than procreation the taboo developed from societal and religious notions about propriety and decency. Artists were scorned for depicting nudes. "Proper women" were expected to be covered virtually from head to toe.
I had a direction with this post but I am too tired to continue with it. More later.
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Post by tarick on Dec 30, 2005 13:03:35 GMT -5
So your parents just did it out in the open, right in front of you? And with anybody, or just each other? Did they teach you how to masturbate, or talk about it, or support you in any way? And then did the rest of society share those same values? Teachers, Clergy, TV?
I'm guessing the answer is no to all of these. Just because they didn't sit down with you and say "Son, masturbation is bad, and sex is something you only have with your wife" doesn't mean that those messages weren't sent.
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