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Post by Sosa on Oct 13, 2006 13:42:39 GMT -5
Maybe this is the inappropriate time or place to post this, but in light of very recent events, I'm left feeling feeling a little hurt and somewhat betrayed.
Watching our most dedicated members leave one after another, when nothing "feels wrong," is something very tough to deal with, I'm sure that many of you will understand what I'm talking about.
So let me say something and get it off my chest. I say it out of frustration, but I mean it out of love for this family.
A number of you have cited problems with leadership. I'll be honest with you. Have there been some decisions made in the past that I did not agree with? Yes. I can think of several, but even in a family setting, someone is there to be the established head. Someone has to keep everything running. How many of you actually have an idea what that means?
I am not telling you that you should blindly accept any decisions made in the linkshell, or that you have no say in what happens. Nothing could be further from the truth. We need EVERY member's input to survive, and when someone who we all think is well-off decides to leave out of the blue and takes a cheap shot at 'disagreeing with the leadership' on their way out, it hurts more than the fact that they're actually leaving.
Why do you put countless hours into building something with family only to throw it away? I'm not talking about leaving the group - that occurs naturally. Many members have left while retaining mutual respect from their peers and family. But why would you build all of that up only to throw it away without even telling anyone why you were leaving? I personally think that we deserve better than that.
I want to know what leadership means to all of you. Does it represent just the figureheads that are responsible for enforcing decisions, or does it mean something else entirely? I want to start a dialogue, and I want to see everyone that bothers reading this post to say at least a few words about what leadership means to them personally.
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I'll start, by putting my idea of leadership forward in the hopes that others will do the same.
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To me, leadership is about taking the hardest path on the road to seeing your friends and family grow and achieve. Not everyone is cut out for it, frankly. It takes more than dedication and good decision making, or the patience in dealing with constantly conflicting points of view or trying to make everyone happy. There's an emotional investment involved... these people are your friends and family, and you want to see them grow. You can be the detached leader of a bureaucracy, but you have to be more than that in a family setting. When someone turns on you suddenly, it's difficult to deal with... and the sad truth is, it will happen time and time again - and you know it.
I don't think for a minute that the leadership of this shell just turns a blind eye to long-time members that choose to depart, or their concerns. I've been in that situation before. When people are unhappy, they have a strong tendency to suffer in silence, without ever addressing the real issue. The problem is that they will feed on this discontentment, unless the problem is solved, and grow more and more unhappy. When someone left Rawr, I took it very personally. It's hard to be detached when a member leaves under questionable circumstances, because you never stop wondering what you could have done to help or be there for that person.
To me, leadership is trust and integrity, above all else.
What does leadership mean to you?
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Post by lockejv on Oct 13, 2006 14:13:53 GMT -5
But why would you build all of that up only to throw it away without even telling anyone why you were leaving? Because you can't come out and say "I'm leaving because I am not getting items quickly enough in this linkshell". So people make shit up so they don't sound greedy. |
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Post by Sosa on Oct 13, 2006 14:17:08 GMT -5
Your post was perfectly fine, Locke, but I just wanted to point out that I would like to keep this thread as objective as possible. It's not my intent to bring up members past and their specific reasons for leaving; but rather, to create a dialogue about:
a) "The silent suffering" members deal with but just aren't getting out, and
b) The concept of the leadership/membership relationship. I am genuinely interested in hearing what each person defines it as.
Again, I'm not directing this at you, Locke, since you adressed the underlying issue, just saying it in the hopes it will prevent the thread from getting derailed. Thanks for your contribution.
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Post by tarick on Oct 13, 2006 14:28:01 GMT -5
Leadership means listening to the concerns of your linkshell, and deciding what's best for them as a whole. Leadership means putting in the extra effort to ensure the success of the effort you are leading, be it a sky raid, a CoP static, or an entire Linkshell.
Leadership means being politically correct when the situation warrants. Leadership means letting someone tell you that whatever you are doing is not good enough. Leadership means asking how to make it better. Leadership means wishing those who leave well.
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Leadership means being someone who others would choose to follow, whatever their reasons. Leadership means not disappointing them for deciding to follow you.
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Post by lockejv on Oct 13, 2006 15:17:55 GMT -5
"Leadership qualities" yields 1.6 million matches on google, most of which could be applied to FFXI. But I'll brainstorm: A leader in FFXI needs to: - Be passionate about success (events) - Put the success of the group above his own desires - Be compassionate, willing to listen, intervene and resolve issues, regardless of how pathetic the person crying is - Be trustworthy. If people can't trust you they won't follow you. - Have a lot of time to invest in game. - Carry yourself with a demeaner that demands respect. - Respect others, don't offend others even if they are wrong - Have authority and ability to "put your foot down" - Be selfless (not required, but helps tremendously in this item whore game) - Be intuitive; able to note changes in behavior and root out small problems before they become big. - Be able to motivate others. - Be an excellent comminicator; able to listen and express goals - Have the ability to instill similar goals in others. - Get things done. - Be positive; complaining / whining from a leader is never a positive thing. - Be an example; walk the talk - Care. And never give anyone a reason to think you don't. - Never lose control or take a back seat to someone else. - Keep his cool at all times. - Be knowledgable. Being the most knowledgable on important issues related to success automatically earns respect. - Be able to lead any event. Members will emulate the leader, so if the leader takes initiative to learn and step up, so will members. - Never give up or appear defeated: we'll try again tomorrow > fuck this wahhhhh - Be able to solve problems privately (/tell) - Avoid calling members out - Be humble - Accept criticism and be able to self-evaluate - Be able to speak for the linkshell, and portray a strong, positive image through any external communication - Put others first - Go above and beyond helping others - Focus and reward quality as opposed to quantity - Keep things fair, honest and open, always - Seek input from all members, and force them to believe their opinion wants to be heard and it matters through results and the handling of their inquiries - Give people the attention they need to feel appreciated - Concerns must be addressed specifically, clearly and publicly - Respect a pearl before breaking it; know that breaking a single pearl can cause a massive chain reaction - Be cool under pressure - Realize that for the majority of people, a linkshell is not forever - Have contingency plans for unexpected events / departures / etc. - Avoid cliques and being cliquy. Try to break them up through party distribution, attention, including them, etc. People who feel like outsiders will leave without remorse. i.e. all SH static, etc. - Empower others. Not fake empowerment, give people tasks or responsibilities that give them real worth. Spread delegation around. - For events, mix things up. Don't have a primary / backup all the time (unless of course it threatens the success of the event). Let the backup be primary / etc. try to even it out I could go on but...I think that's enough  |
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Post by tarick on Oct 13, 2006 15:26:07 GMT -5
Nice list.
I also think a leader needs a fancy hat. Can't lead without a fancy hat.
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Post by lockejv on Oct 13, 2006 15:35:52 GMT -5
- Have a vision. A strong, well-documented vision, and a clear path on how to achieve the goals. A list of the resources needed to get there, who will help, and how people can help complete the puzzle.
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Post by tarick on Oct 13, 2006 15:38:46 GMT -5
And some decent shoes...
Can't go around leading with a ratty old pair of Reebok's with two different colored laces...
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Post by Sosa on Oct 13, 2006 15:52:25 GMT -5
Again, thank you for your contributions, Locke. And Tarick, image isn't everything... but it sure as hell does help to look good while gettin' it done.  [Edit:] I'm a little disappointed that we've gotten 42 views and replies from two people. Please post, even if you feel the discussion is in bad taste. Say so. The purpose of this thread is to open dialogue about the problems nobody is talking about - if no one bothers saying anything, then we've gotten nowhere. |
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Post by tempus on Oct 13, 2006 18:08:25 GMT -5
Sosa, unfortunately most people don't voice their opinions until it's past the point where we can address them, so I doubt many people will respond here. =(
Locke's list is good, I try for some, miss several, etc.
From the harsher side:
Leadership means putting the goals of the team above the goals of the individual, unless they can coincide. This also means putting the team goals above the leader's personal goals. Unfortunately some individuals do not realize this is nothing personal against their goals.
Perhaps more later.
-t
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Post by Jonathan on Oct 13, 2006 18:16:54 GMT -5
Leadership means caring passionately, and making whatever personal sacrifices are needed in order to satisfy that burning passion.
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tibent
New Member
Huh?
Posts: 130
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Post by tibent on Oct 13, 2006 23:56:50 GMT -5
Hmmm. I could rant & rave about leadership all day long. Personally to me it doesn't mean anything unless the people AS A WHOLE agree on their leaders. & in turn those leaders need to understand what those people see as a leader. So to get to my point, talking about what a leader is is shit unless the person or people that are chosen live up to those expectations. THen the majority must understand that the leader/s CANNOT live up to each & every thought but they MUST try to as much as entirely possible. The do as I say not as I do will never work in a leadership role.
My thoughts to be short & sweet about it:
Integrity, loyalty to all people that VOTED them into that position, commitment to the people, & the will to FIGHT for those people as much as humally possible.
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Post by Bridger - Retired Paladin on Oct 14, 2006 2:20:01 GMT -5
Sosa it appears that you desire a response. You don't understand what I did, for your own personal reasons you have decided to post and I feel from your context it was a result of my actions.
This was not a hasty decision, I needed a good month to think about it. I am not a little kid, I will not continually stomp my feet until I get my way, annoying the hell out of everyone else because I didn't get my way.
Leadership (or quality of character) in my opinion:
-Leadership often doesn't have a lot to do with being appointed.
-If you are upset, go get un-upset then calmy deal with the issue.
-If you are upset, you do not need to dampen everyone else's day because you are upset.
-Accept that some issues cannot be agreed upon, and tries to not burn every bridge if leaving over disagreed issues
Learship of appointed officials is different from people who stand out and everyone chooses to follow.
In RL, I'm a rigid, monotone individual, and because of this everyone thinks I know what I'm doing, as a result I hear comments like this often.
I am not, and will not be a hot-headed individual that goes off and makes permanent decisions on the fly without thinking them over for a long period of time. The members of the LS that knew me well understand that. Rather than make me bring up dead issues, they decided to PM or /tell me, I explained it to them, and they treated me like a friend and let me go. The issues I left over are dead and buried, I have no desire to bring them up. Why do you feel the need to make me? In 8 months of me being here have I convinced you that I "take cheap shots" or "leave because we don't get items fast enough"? If so, I think you should have booted me.
I decided not to bring up dead issues on a public thread Sosa, and I also won't sit here and be accused of "taking cheap shots" or "leaving because we weren't getting items fast enough".
You want the answer here you go. I would have rather left it buried, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this dead issue, and I am leaving over it.
I will now elaborate, and I'm putting this in black coloring, so you have to high-light it if it's that important to you. To those that don't want to hear about dead issues, and will respsect that I did not hastily make my decision, don't bother reading below, if you are mad at me, or feel that I left because "we weren't getting items fast enough", feel free to read if you have nothing better to do. The drop rates are the same for everyone, and here I have the most point as a Pld at this time. Where I'm going, I will be at 0 points. It makes no sense for me to leave when I'm leading in points in my Job, and yes, this did make me hesistate to leave. However, staying because you have a lot of points is not a justified reason to stay in my mind.
I did not leave based on only the decisions of our leaders, but also on the decisions of our members. I am not attacking any individual. When I look at most of the individuals of EO, I like them and would wish to remain friends, but I cannot support recent actions.
Sometimes friends fight over really stupid stuff, you want to remain friends with all of them and you just stay out of it.
First of all, I knew back when Manditory Attendance was initiated, I would not be with EO forever, but that's not the real problem. If someone is kicked out of our Video Game Club (EO), there had better be a good reason for it.
You use the word family, I do not feel that way. I hear the word family, but I have not seen it practiced. Family includes everyone. I'm now going to be very rude, I hope this offends no one, (I make this comparision as only an extreme, I am not calling anyone any names, or saying anyone is retarded) but my family includes all the people who may be seen as the retarded schoolbus riders which are in my family. I am a grown adult who is not perfect, especially in this game where I have wiped alliances at least 5-6 times which I can think of off of the top of my head as a direct result of my actions.
Zannefair and Cynric were very good friends of mine. The only reason why I didn't quit a month ago is because Cynric of all people persuaded me not to quit EO. When I found out (during Dynamis) I waited until after Dynamis and Specifically said in LS
Bridger: Alright, which Sackholder wants to talk to me?
Tempus: Talk to me.
Tempus and I talk, he explains his side of the story. I am unhappy, I do not understand or feel the actions have been justiified, and talk to Cynric, who persuades me to stay in the LS. My conversations with Cynric were also what persuaded me to be silent. This was his issue, I respected him, and decided to let him handle it.
It wasn't just Zannefair leaving which upset me, it was the impact it had on our LS. It was that Cynric would likey be leaving also, it was that their friends would also be leaving. There are 5 other members I have had conversations with who have left over this issue. Some choose to just leave and not say what was bothering them. They didn't like what happened, knew they couldn't change what had been done. Others said it to me in private, because they saw "family" at war and choose to stay out of it.
About the only way it could have been justified to me is if I had personally witnessed Zannefair going off, aggroing mobs, and wiping us multiple times, many more times than I wiped the LS. Or if she pulled multiple Dakitty's, where she logged repeatildy because someone had the name Katarina. If she wastes her mp, I fundamentally don't care, as long as she contributes SOMETHING to our Video Game Club.
Anyways, I fundamentally felt different about the entire situation. When I made a post about Cynric calling people names, I didn't stand up for him, but I was trying to say "no shit, you booted his wife from a video game club and he called you a name. Did you not forsee that coming?" and I made it in such a formal way that no quote could be taken of me attacking anyone.
Markus gets all pissed, doesn't want to talk about it. That's about the end of me trying to deal with this. Nothing I say will have any impact on what has been done. Tempus even posted something like "If you have a problem, you are free to leave, I'm not saying everyone should quit, but there is no point in staying if you really aren't happy."
I wasn't happy, and I sure as hell didn't feel like people were being treated like "Family". So when I see "family" my gut instinct is "bullshit".
I am a tank, the LS, both normal members and sackholders, decided to directly impact all of us. The decisions of the sackholders were to boot my friend, the decisions of the normal members was to make it such an issue where she would have to be booted. I had a problem with those decisions, we are not goign to see eye to eye. However, my opinion bared absolutely no weight because I didn't know people made it such an extreme issue. You could have put Zann in my party, she could have cured me, and the friend she had would have tolerated her.
From a managment standpoint, we did not have the man power to loose as many people we did.
I recall Xaero saying something like "people said they would not attend if Zannefair was at the event". I feel this is just stupid. That's not that way I treat people, that's not how I want to see others treated. I will not screw over everyone else because I have a problem with 1 person. "Family" would not leave because of a problem with 1 person Sosa.
Yes, I have complained about Zannefair, I have done it direclty to her and behind her back. She Hasted herself for reasons I didn't understand, made us wait on her Mp, went Whm/Blm and nuked mobs with blm spell on Cop 4-3, but she was always there, and she is one of the reasons why I am done with CoP.
She happens to be one of the few whms that doesn't cure me to 100%, because she understands if she does, I cannot cure myself, and cannot get hate when I cure myself for 0 hp. (And also this wastes my Mp.) This is the 1 strength that I, a person who very directly depends on healers, extremely values.
I decided not to post comments on KI or EO pertaining to Cyn and Zann, unless it was purely factual. I made fun of other people who said really stupid things on KI and on here.
I didn't like how Cynric was treated. He claimed his pearl was broken and asked for a new one, no one would give him a new one and no one would say they broke it. That's stupid, if you booted him, have the testicular fortitude to admit it, or give him back his pearl because "it wasn't broken". "Family" deserves better than that.
Well, that's it. I have felt this way for almost an entire month, and I do not wish to remain. This is not who I am. I do not support kicking "family" out of my Video Game Club unless there's a good reason for it, and this reason has not been justified to me in the month since its passing.
I would have rather just avoided diving back into this issue Sosa, but you felt so compelled that I justified myself that you made a completely seperate thread about "Leadership". I feel perfectly justified in saying that I do not agree with the decisions of this LS. Call it a cheap shot or whatever you want, I'm moving on.
Good Luck man.
You used the word family a lot Sosa. I thought we were friends. If we are friends, then let me go without making big posts about leadership which refer to my quitting.
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Post by Sosa on Oct 14, 2006 3:59:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry if you feel this thread was directed at you. It wasn't.
You are not the only one that left under the pretense of having difficulty with the leadership: four of the five previous orphans that left recently cited the exact same reason, and your name was not brought up at any time until now.
You had your reasons for leaving, and I will respect them. This thread is aimed at the remaining membership, again, in the effort to create dialogue to break the silence over the elephant in in the middle of the room that no-one's talking about.
As for friendship, do I consider you a friend? Of course I do. One isolated event after what I've seen and known you capble of doesn't change my overall image of you. Am I disappointed you decided to leave? Yes. Did I stop respecting you because of it? No. I know you had your own personal reasons for quitting... and knowing your personality, I can't possibly see this as a split-second decision you made without giving careful consideration to... but that said, the reason I danced around it was because I didn't want to bring it up in a public forum. I said that in the post in which you announced your decision: I would prefer to speak with you in private rather than a public forum... which is why I wanted to keep the issue seperate.
That said...
Thank you for your (on-topic) contribution. However, I respectfully ask that you please do not derail the original purpose of this thread.
[Edit: I have not read the blacked out text in what you posted. Bridger, again, I'm very sorry if you feel that this thread was "calling you out" in any way, but you are not responsible for justifying your actions to me or anyone else that reads this forum. I apologize again if you found the tone somewhat derogatory, but while it is true it was posted out of frustration, this frustration was not directed at you. I am frustrated because, as a family, we are facing serious issues that require the contribution of every member to move past; but many members are content to sit on their hands and leave it entirely up to others.
The point of this thread, again, is to facilitate dialogue - I want people to get involved, so we can start to adress the real problems here, and hopefully grow from it. Sorry for the redundancy, but I really can't stress this enough. This is to help everyone, and if the topic is derailed, then there was no point in ever bringing it up.]
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Xaero
Soldier
Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb!
Posts: 2,737
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Post by Xaero on Oct 14, 2006 7:36:30 GMT -5
Reponse to Bridger cut
Please, anyone who wants to reply to Bridger's blacked out portion, either PM him or start a new thread. Preferably PM. Sosa would really like to keep this thread on topic. Also, as Bridger as stated, he didnt really want to bring this issue up.
Leave it alone or talk about it elsewhere.
-t
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