So be it.

[Nauren]

well..we have an accountant, 2 computer geeks, 1 future computer programmer of sorts all in the EO SH forums....trust us when we say an simple excel sheet will not work. . Although your offering of assistance is appreciated.

[_Code]

bridger said:

Someone not responding to your /tell doesn't mean they are ignoring you. They may be busy /telling more than 1 person, or actually playing, or doing something else and miss it. Please understand this, I have had ppl tell me "YOU DIDN"T RESPOND TO MY TELL" as I am tanking. No kidding I didn't respond, I have 1 a ton of lines popping up on the screen while I am watching voke+flash timers and watching everyone's Hp bar to make sure everyone's ok. Sometimes 1 line of converstation gets by me, or 4 ppl suddenly decide to send me /tells all at the same time about whatever.

QFT.

You think we get alot of tells sometimes? Imagine what Markus/Tempus etc get.

I like to concider Tempus a friend. Sometimes I send him a tell and I get back

"Tempus>> Fucking...FUCK!"

and I know he's busy, and I wait. Sometimes I get a reply back, sometimes I dont. Its nothing to take personally.

_Code

[alanthiana]

Communication is key for a family to stay happy. If a /tell goes unanswered, take it to the forums, and PM someone. If a PM on the forums goes unanswered, make a post about it. I highly doubt a post is going to go unnoticed.

I haven't really heard anything said that I would consider degrading to women. What Nauren said is correct...2 women, 2 different opinions. What I consider degrading (very little), and what others consider degrading is going to be completely different. If you were to come to me, and say "Hey, so-and-so said this...don't you find it degrading?", it would make me notice it.

fluffnstuff said:

.. its all part of the problem of why people chose to leave.

Imohtep/Aerya/Bale left over issues with trust related to the LS bank. Morbid left because he told his friends he would go. Who left because of the flirting/degrading?

Fluffy, please don't take this as "being told to shut up", or your opinions not being taking seriously. If you have a problem with something, especially something like the flirting that goes in in LS (which I egg on at times...), I want to know. I don't want you feeling uncomfortable. I like having you around...you are a great WHM, and a fun person to play with. If you don't want to give examples here, PM me. That goes for any of the female in this LS. If you really feel things are said that shouldn't be...talk to someone about it. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a shellholder, talk to someone else.

I know this is repeating something that has been said over and over again, but I'm going to remind everyone:

If you have a problem, and you don't say anything about it, no one will know, and no one can fix it. We have 13 shellholders, and 70+ members. Between running the shell and having lives outside of the game...there are things the shellholders will miss. Speak up, even if you have to make a post on the forums to do so, that way things can get taken care of.

This is the second time I've seen this...where 1 issue is brought up, and suddenly, there's a bunch of other issues that people never heard about. Which means that people aren't addressing issues when they come up, instead just bringing them up when we have a stressful situation. Most things will be handled better as they come up, instead of throwing more wood on the fire.

[Nauren]

Even the manthra's get flirted with.....look at the charactor design...its like a "kick me" sign.

[morlen]

im going to post on this subject once more, then im putting it behind me

aerya, bale, imoh, morb, and anyone else who have followed
glad to have known ya
the adventures were fun, the rewards were grand
but alas, fighting by ur side under the same banner has come to an end
ill cya guys around jueno, like i do with all other adventurers whom ive crossed paths with
good luck with ur adventures, wherever they may take u

as far as EO, the spirit is saddend, but not crushed
if need be, i will take up the banner, and charge the line, shouting the battle cry plowing through the ranks
my axe, my spirit, my very soul, i unleash upon the enemy
victory shall be ours, tho many breatheren may fall, the day is not lost

*He turns, surveying the bloody landscape. With an unabashed face he looks upon the fallen. "Farewell my friends." He hefts hackmeat on his shoulder, and begins to wander.....what other adventures await this warrior.*

[cynric]

Perhaps the question is what is this relationship we have here. On some level EO is a business. Are the members employees or are they stockholders.

If we are employees we need to shut up and let the management run the organization in whatever way they feel like, and use the funds in whatever way they feel like and give really nice bonuses to specific members if they feel like it. It's not our treasury, it is theres we just work for them. Employeers fire employees they dont like. Employeers make ultimatiums like "improve by june 1st". However if we are employees, the management shouldnt make any comments about how people cash out. They should expect us to only show up when its advantageous personally. They should expect people to move on after having gotten what they wanted out of the organization. Employeers shouldnt expect their employees to hang around after hours (i.e. the 90% rule). Employees look at it as "whats in it for me" and act accordingly. Thats what an employee/employeer relationship is like.

Or are we all stockholders with a personal stake in the organization. Stockholders invest in an organization. Stockholders show up for a dynamis-windy even though they dont want anything that drops there. Stockholders show up to forced pops because it betters the organization. However stockholders expect respect, a vote, open books, full disclosure and a role in selecting/removing/replacing management. Stockholders smell stink when things are done secretly. Stockholders dont want to to feel like their is an inner circle that they are not part of. Stockholders think of the corporate wealth as partly theirs and dont want to hear about wes-kits being handed out secretly. Things done secretly are generally done that way because people are ashamed or know others wont be happy. Stockholders want a way to change the management if its not to their tastes.

So what sort of organization are we anyway? We have tried to be some of both, that probably wouldnt work in business. I am amazed it works here. I think also we have forgotten that this is a game, and all parties are spending a lot of time doing things that are not fun.

Cynric

[fluffnstuff]

LOL Nauren what the hell is wrong with you. ? This has nothing to do with you and once again i appreciate the kind words that everyone can toss out at each other....

Grow the hell up people.. and quit being so accusing and so assuming crap....

And no Nauren i did not send you a /tell you have not been on lately ...

What you feeling so guilty about that you need to answer me like that

Fluffers

[Nauren]

We have tried both...simply put....people won't show after they get what they want....people are greedy. If we decided not to enforce some rules....there would be no sky..dynamis..or forced pops because only about 5 people + the people who want the item will show up.

Sorry but even in the real world people revolve around greed....so we light the fire under their asses...its quite simple.....we are more leniant then pretty much any other HNMLS out there...but if you don't like our rules..your more then welcome to go to some place thats more strict.

what is done with the bank..secret or not..is nobody's concern..its not your money...its EO's money...the only thing that everyone needs to know is that its not being used in any way shape or form to help the people who manage the bank.

It is used to help members...and yes sometimes secretly...why? Because everyone and their mom would get so fucking jealous and cause a big stink over it. So I guess a little compassion from the SH to the members should just be stopped all together? Fuck no....We take care of those who take care of EO...if someone is on their knee's...we stand them up. We don't just blatently give out millions of gil to someone because they wanted it. Hell in the history of EO there has been only 3 occasions where the bank assisted someone and it wasn't all that much to start with.


and Fluff..I don't feel guilty about anything...what I did I explained and I don't feel bad about it because at the time you seemed ok with it.

I know what I said is no worse then what others have said. So it almost seems that you are ok with some people talking to you in a sexual manner while others you are not.

Don't read my post as an angry post..but a hell of a confused post because the stuff you have typed..doesn't add up to me.

And if I seem defensive, its because I am..I defend my friends...even from other friends. I will not allow unfair accusations being slung around without drawing the entire story out.

[fluffnstuff]

since Nauren seem to like to assume its him and give those kind words .. i have no problem naming who it is .. i did not want to go that route in this public forum. But once again you shut it down and say
Two different opinions two different women.. FUCK the one that feels that its wrong .... right ? that is always your answer to everything.. shoot down the one that feels its wrong cuz you dont want to deal with it ...

Now you tell me that is right instead of talking to one that feels its wrong ?? LMAOOO I have no clue how some people actually stay SH'ers

[alanthiana]

Fluff...if no one knows what you are talking about...how does it get fixed? No one is saying you are wrong. No one is saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. Nauren is simply pointing out that without knowing what is actually on your mind, it can't be changed.

[Nauren]

I never said fuck the one that feels wrong...now your placing words in my mouth. I offered suggestions...others offered suggestions...and then I placed my personal opinion on the matter.

Up until this very instant..you (seemed) as if you enjoyed talking to me..and my actions as a friend and SH'er. Now because I'm defending EO against your will..I'm the bad guy and shouldn't be a SH'er anymore....sorry thats not how this works.

Now let me post my real opinion on the matter since you decided that my one executive action betrays all my good ones in the past.....Its a game.....a virtual charactor...a sexy virtual charactor..your going to get hit on...have sexual remarks....some down right fucking nasty. You know how I know??? I play Yuna's charactor all the damn time. You think she is any different?

Now if your telling me that this has take place in the last 2 weeks (which is all I've been gone)..I'd have to say I don't believe you..this is something your claiming has taken place for months..in which I have been here...and I'm ALWAYS on the forums for PM's.

[_Code]

fluffnstuff said:

Grow the hell up people.. and quit being so accusing and so assuming crap....

In the real world people use grown up words. Hell; Elementary school is tough for people because kids say things other kids dont like.

The difference about being a grown up as you say; you can change things. I had an extremely hard time, my entire school career. But I was stuck. Kids can't make their own decisions on where they go to school, etc.

As an adult; if I feel offended in any situation. I have 2 choices.

1) Change things
2) Change environments

2 Sackholders have come in here, different genders, and said they have never heard of any of the problems your having. So you aren't doing #1. You aren't being proactive[/i] to make a change. To right what you feel is wrong. And your still here, so you didn't do #2. This leads to one conclusion. Its not that bad, and your dealing with it. Now that there is a drama, a completely unrelated drama it comes out.

If there's a problem, as said before, its your job to bring it to someone and voice your concern to make the situation better. If you feel it's demeaning to all _________, whether that blank be women, homosexuals, white males, african americans, mexicans, martians...... then I'm 100% confident your issue will be handled, and will probably have others backing you up. There was an issue of rascisim not long ago; it wasn't even against my race and I was offended, I contacted a sackholder, and others contacted sackholders. The issue was resolved.

We speak in general, relaxed language. I promise throughout the course of the day; worse jokes, comments, stories will hit everyones ears. Its the condition of humanity. Just because it's a game doesn't seperate us from reality completely. I'm sure alot of us wouldn't be involved in a leisure environment that made me speak like I was in the military, and use politically correct jargon to get my point accross. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to be disrespectful, but it does mean its your responsibility to point it out when it happens.

_Code

[cynric]

I got it Nauren. You management, me employee. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Bridger - Retired Paladin]

fluffnstuff said:

.. i have no problem naming who it is ..

If you have a problem with someone specificially YOU have to call them out or talk to them directly. So far you haven't.

fluffnstuff said:

Two different opinions two different women.. FUCK the one that feels that its wrong .... right ?

No one here is a mind reader. You cannot solve anything by saying "some comments bother people". The response is "who said what which bothers who?"

I.e - if Jonathan tells me he wants me to ride him like a Taru, and if I don't say "Jona that is really not cool, I do not appreciate that nor do I want to hear it".

Now if I say "i don't like some comments people make" that doesn't change much, because I haven't communicated to Jonathan, or anyone, what the problem is.

If you have a problem with something and don't speak up, just throw out something vague, nothing changes. What comment from what person at what time did you have a problem with?

If something bothers you, YOU must speek up AND be SPECIFIC.

[Xaero]

1. For you to think that Aerya had any intentions prior to asking bank balance is completely obsurd.... Aerya was asking due to the fact that others were asking, not for the fact that he wanted to screw anyone over. Aerya's intentions were for all the EO members not for any other reason. Moral in the past month or more has not been very good, and aerya was trying to bring that up to best suit everyone EO not just the SHs.

If this was the point he shoulda just said some members would like to know the balance, and would like it posted publicly. however this was not the case nor was it ever mentioned, and as far as i knew no one has ever made any issues of knowing the balance before hand.

You can not AND I REPEAT CAN NOT call people names like Moran, Stupid, Idiot and expect them to be happy about this. You can NOT as a SH call people name and degrade them in front of others and expect them to be happy. This issue has been addressed several times to several SH's with pleas gone unheard as to changing this. SH's Response to this "That is just the way he/she is".

never heard someone jus offer this excuse for it

I have met 3 people in the last 3 months that are in EO and in Particle or another HNMLS .. and i am told "he/she is an exception" he has known a SH for a long time....... WTH is that ? Fair to the rest that were thrown without even a talk first from EO cuz they were caught with another HNMLS on ? I am not the only one that has seen this issue and has felt that the situation is not right at all.

far as i know Ryan an Alc were the only ones allowed this, and ONLY for the reason that their primary playing times kept them from coming to ALL events

There are some people in EO that are constantly making sexual inuendos towards others.. play is play but at some point it gets to the point of sickening and harassing to be honest.. This issues is clear and can be seen by all members of EO in LS, this should be addressed without members having to come and say something and feeling embarassed.

sorry, but if you dont say anything such as tellin them they are going too far or jus to plain stop. there is nothing that can be done. however if you have warned the person, and they continue then something can be done.

And the issue of Racism, in recent months has come up. Things being said that just should not be said in LS .. That is the reason they have LAWS about these things, not to mention the fact that it really offends and hurts people.

far as i know only time this has happened is with Stahn a month or so ago an his pearl was crushed.

About calculating bank balance: do you guys need help with calculating this or do you have problem solved? This isn't rocket science, you ( or if you need I ) can draw up an excel doc which list ppl's names, amount you owe them, and subtracts amount from however much is on SeeDbank currently. (if seedback changes, you update that number).

no the problem here is how much time do we waste per week to update this figure?? even if it is updated daily which to provide SS evidence would take added time that could be used to play in game. the figure would still be inaccurate. you still have outstanding balances to be paid, stuff thats sold for money coming in via bazaar and AH, and payouts that the bank makes jus loggin in the for the day. keep in mind jus the time spent doing all the other admin work. plus the time used to jus sit on seedbank to hand out cash. added in the time spent getting caught up on affairs on the boards. imo this was just 1 more thing to add to the list to keep someone from playing. or does he update the balance weekly on the boards?? that number would be so grossly innaccurate that there truely wouldnt be much point in that one at all, but atleast it wouldnt be quite the pain in the ass. i mean really im pretty sure tempus doesnt do that much daily as it is too keep shit running, lol

<replies to comments at end of page 3> more to probably follow, lol